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Has keto/Paleo/LCHF ever cured CVD?

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  • Has keto/Paleo/LCHF ever cured CVD?

    There is credible evidence of a plant based diet curing severe cases of cardiovascular disease (CVD). There are peer reviewed articles certifying the efficacy of the plant based diet in reversing the most severe cases of CVD.

    In this video, Dr Ostfeld shares examples like the one at 9:00 which talks about a patient that was told to have immediate surgery and instead goes home, changes his diet and within days starts to see results.

    Can anybody provide a similar compelling story where a person is being told they must have immediate surgery due to CVD and instead they change their diet to keto, Paleo, Atkins, or low carb high fat and are able to see similar results?

  • #2
    I think that the term "cured" is overused. What does it really mean to say that CVD can ever be cured as the largest risk factor for a heart attack or stroke is increasing age? Maybe reversing some markers of CVD to a degree is about the best that I think that we can reasonably expect. If you accept that, then you have to say what specifically is reversed. On this forum we have gone through a lot of discussion on CAC scores and CIMT tests. I guess that others could say that they reversed their CVD as shown on a CT angiogram or some other test. If you want to see who changed their diet/lifestyle and those alone (e.g. no statins) resulted in significant reversal of CVD by some standardized testing procedure, then that would be interesting to hear. In the end, a one person testimonial is useful to consider but not necessarily applicable to the wider audience. There are many one-person testimonials out on the Internet about "curing" just about any major disease "if you only follow the stated doctor's true and proven methodology". When that one-person testimonial gets translated into a successful randomized clinical trial, then I pay a lot of attention. However, some things will probably never have a randomized study done on them, and you have to then be open to new information but be skeptical of claims.

    Comment


    • sthubbar
      sthubbar commented
      Editing a comment
      Tom, I think I asked you on another post, 'Did you watch the video?' This is not a personal testimonial or improvement in markers. This is someone tested in the hospital and told they could not go home and needed immediate surgery. Can anyone provide a single such example where they decline the surgery and used anything other than a plant based diet? There are hundreds of such cured by plant based diet, including in peer reviewed journals. I'm just looking for a similarly strong, severe, imminent case of CVD that was cured by any other diet besides plant based. Any single example? By cured we can say, someone is unable to walk 20 feet and are told they are in imminent danger of a heart attack and they switch diet to non-plant based and are now able to run 2 miles.
      Last edited by sthubbar; 07-26-2019, 09:30 AM.

  • #3
    Yes, I watched the video. Such testimonials are interesting, but I don't consider those anywhere near a randomized controlled trial as far as how much importance should be attached. I don't know what to think about a trained cardiologist saying that a patient made a big improvement in a few days of a vegan diet. I am very skeptical to say the least. I want to see some hard data as there is too much BS out there. If that patient had a really bad diet/lifestyle and made significant changes across the board, then yes over time I can believe that there would be an improvement. Are those limited patient results applicable to the bulk of people? I think that he truly believes what he says, but without hard data I am not buying it as it sounds way, way too good to be true.

    Comment


    • sthubbar
      sthubbar commented
      Editing a comment
      Tom, I agree that this is not the most conclusive and I hope you would agree that the testimony of a cardiologist in regards to CVD is of stronger evidence than the testimony of a physicist or anybody else not specialized in CVD. Can anybody provide an equally weak evidence, meaning the testimony of an expert in CVD, ie cardiologist who will testify that a patient was in imminent danger of a heart attack and they simply changed their. diet to anything other than plant based and reversed their condition? A single example??

    • Tom
      Tom commented
      Editing a comment
      I don't dislike the vegan diet or keto diet for that matter. You will find reputable doctors by the normal standards on both sides say why their preference is the only one that really works (and they have proof of course)! Well, I would prefer some skepticism on the part of these folks as they are preaching their message to the bulk of people who have no framework of knowledge in which to place the information.

      Recently I saw an article debunking some of the claims of vegan proponents. The problem is when the proponents of one or another diet use a very limited set of patients and time, and of course fully validate their claims (not). https://www.medpagetoday.com/blogs/s...ily_DHE_Active

    • sthubbar
      sthubbar commented
      Editing a comment
      Tom, thank you for providing the skeptical link from a cardiologist and we can ignore Ornish as he is not a cardiologist. You mention 'You will find reputable doctors by the normal standards on both sides'. This is exactly the position I challenge. Please share a single example of a cardiologist saying that a patient with severe CVD used any diet other than plant based. A perfect example would be 'The patient ignored our advice and did a non-plant based diet and really showed how wrong all of us cardiologists are.' For sure there are thousands of patients that have ignored the doctor recommendation, though I can't find a single example where a successful ignoring consisted of. changing to a non-plant based diet, as told by a cardiologist. A single example, anywhere in the world?

  • #4
    Can I find an exact copy of the situation of somebody not on a vegan diet? I am not sure, but I don't believe that it is even worth the time looking because there was no hard data to back up what he said as far as improvements in health of those couple of patients that I believe that you are referring to. None that I saw. It was literally a little more than hand-waving. Because he is a cardiologist does that count, probably more than the lay person and perhaps even more than a standard physician. However, that isn't good enough as I have heard all sorts of different opinions from cardiologists. Hard data is what really counts.
    Last edited by Tom; 07-26-2019, 10:40 AM.

    Comment


    • sthubbar
      sthubbar commented
      Editing a comment
      fatmax, can you share a single example where Dr. Davis claims a patient was suffering from extreme CVD, in imminent danger of having a heart attack and then switched to his recommended diet and reversed the disease? If not that extreme, than any CVD patient that switched to his diet and reversed the disease? BTW, John used a statin. Statin+low BMI+Any reasonable diet (ie no mono diets) will manage CVD. Let's remove the statin and see the true diet impact.
      Last edited by sthubbar; 07-26-2019, 06:14 PM.

    • fatmax
      fatmax commented
      Editing a comment
      Why would someone "in imminent danger of having a heart attack" be concerned about a statin or diet? He should be concerned about getting to the hospital.

    • sthubbar
      sthubbar commented
      Editing a comment
      fatmax, because this is precisely the claim of Dr. Ostfeld. It seems other cardiologists like Dr Kim Williams and Dr Joel Kahn make similar claims. Can anybody share another cardiologist that will claim a patient with severe CVD was able to reverse the disease without statins and primarily using any diet other than plant based?

  • #5
    Tom, I found three cardiologists advocating for the keto diet. This is what I was looking for.
    Are you looking for a licensed physician who can assist you with your low-carb lifestyle? Here’s an interactive map of medical doctors recommending low-carb.

    Comment


    • sthubbar
      sthubbar commented
      Editing a comment
      Dr Aseem Malhotra looked promising and starts with some sensible positions like CVD is a chronic inflammation problem and we must reduce sugar consumption, lower blood glucose levels and look beyond simply measuring LDL. All of this is sensible and works for. plant based. The article he is proud of in British Sports journal advocates for olive oil, nuts and some fish. All of this agrees with plant based. Upon minor looking it seems Dr. Malhotra may be following the Dr Oz plan and more concerned about fame and fortune than on scientific rigor. I'll check out the final candidate. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Aseem_Malhotra

    • sthubbar
      sthubbar commented
      Editing a comment
      The last candidate, Dr. Blair O’Neill and his Ketocule program don't seem to have enough information to make a decision so I will leave this as undecided.

    • sthubbar
      sthubbar commented
      Editing a comment
      I missed Dr Bret Scher. He seems active in the keto community and has many videos and articles. For those advocating the keto approach, I suspect he may be the most likely candidate of a cardiologist who might be able to testify about a patient with severe CVD that went on a non-plant based diet, without statins and reversed the disease. I will also see if I can find such a story.

  • #6
    For a more complete picture to balance out the three above, here are 44 cardiologists just in the US advocating for the plant based diet.

    Comment


    • sthubbar
      sthubbar commented
      Editing a comment
      fatmax, I'm not understanding your point. Are you claiming this person is not a cardiologist? Or is there another claim you think they are lying about like reversing heart disease through nutrition?

    • fatmax
      fatmax commented
      Editing a comment
      He may be a certified cardiologist but he's also a con-man claiming vegan/vegetarianism is healthy nutrition, when it is really a meme, a mental disease, just a form of self-mutilation. Many of his patients are probably desperate people grasping at anything that sounds hopeful, and he's milking them of every cent that he can. Of course, real doctors and used car salesmen wouldn't do that, would they? The older I get, the more cynical I get.
      Last edited by fatmax; 07-27-2019, 02:07 AM.

    • sthubbar
      sthubbar commented
      Editing a comment
      fatmax, at least he is in good company with the other 90% of all cardiologist con artists that recommend a plant based diet.

  • #7
    My Bale Doneed doctor is treating a patient that HAD been on the Ornish program which is as close to vegan as you can get without being vegan. This patient had horrible results on Ornish. The Ornish system caused him to become diabetic from all the low fat/high carb foods. Said patient is now doing low carb high fat under the guidance of my doctor.

    As well, whenever there are studies that look at veganism vs meat eating, the results invariably show minor differences, minor enough to question causality. We know that meat eaters tend to engage in other unhealthy behaviors (smoking, don't visit the doctor, don't take recommended meds, don't exersize). This renders a lot of the health research on meat eaters to be suspect.

    I would be the first one to go whole hog vegan if I thought it really made a difference.

    What the studies usually do is they compare standard american diet, with all of its junk food, to a whole foods plant based diet. And to me that doesn't prove anything. the SAD is horrible and going to any form of whole foods, non junk diet will improve things. Vegan or meat based. You will improve just by removing the seed oils, sugars and processed flours.

    There are 2 other factoids I would like to throw in. #1 the french people eat more saturated fats and more animal foods than do Americans and most other Europeans. Yet the French have much lower rates of CVD than said Americans and Europeans. If meat is so bad for us, this statistic should not exist.
    #2 The people of Hong Kong eat WAY WAY more meat than just about anyone. Yet they live longer than most anyone, despite living in more pollution than many. Perhaps meat is serving a protective function in the people of Hong Kong.
    Last edited by David; 07-30-2019, 06:43 PM.

    Comment


    • David
      David commented
      Editing a comment
      sthubbar. There are more than just 1. Dr. Davis is not against meat. There is another cardio guy on making vids on Youtube who advocates carnivore. Dr. Ali I believe. He is the head of his cardiology dept at a hospital. Here's the thing. You will never find many cardiologists advocating a meat diet. Why? Because it subjects them to disciplinary actions from medical boards. Any cardiologist advocating for a plant based diet will be given a pass by the medical boards. But try advocating a LCHF diet and see what happens. Look into Dr. Gary Fettke's story. Look into Dr. Tim Noakes story. Look into Dr. Shawn Baker's story. Dr Robert Atkins was constantly harassed by the medical orthodoxy. Look at Doctor Michael R Eades (Protein Power author). Their careers were nearly ruined by medical boards for advocating LCHF and meat. Many other meat eating doctors will tell you that they are live in some amount of fear of medical boards. It takes no courage whatsoever to advocate for veganism. But try promoting a meat based diet and watch your career get ruined by dogmatic medical boards.

      Same thing happens if you try to question the safety of vaccines. You better watch out if you even dare question anything about vaccines.

      I am not saying meat is better than vegan. I just think Veganism is no better than meat.

    • rich
      rich commented
      Editing a comment
      Most vegetarian diets as recommended by Esselstyn and Ornish are not what I would call high carb, but moderate carb. They are both based on eating a lot of green, leafy vegetables. My guess is the patient was not following the diet.

    • sthubbar
      sthubbar commented
      Editing a comment
      David, Dr Garth Davis is definitely whole, food plant based. I accept some meat in the diet, say 10-15%, that still is far from anyone that advocates for a "high-fat" diet. Where does Dr Davis say he advocates for high meat consumption? I did find Dr Nadir Ali and he looks like in the same category as Dr Bret Scher, meaning, interesting to check out. As for Dr. Atkins, he was morbidly obese and most surely suffered severe CVD which directly contributed to his death. Finally, if you are putting Dr Gary Fettke, Dr Tim Noakes, Dr Shawn Baker and Dr Robert Atkins in the same category as anti-vaxers, that will definitely weaken their credibility. Let's not derail this discussion into the vaccine/anti-vaccine debate.
      Last edited by sthubbar; 07-31-2019, 08:20 PM.

  • #8
    This has been an interesting thread to read. It is undoubtedly an issue with a lot of complexities. Several years ago when I learned that I was building up substantial plaque in my carotids, I could hear the concern in my cardiologist voice. I embarked on a mission and went out to find someone/anyone that had success reversing atherosclerosis. My maternal grandfather had died from a massive heart-attack and heart disease was embedded in the family genes. I knew this was no joke. At the time everything I read, saw, and listened to pointed to plant-based. I bought everything I could by Ornish and Esselystyn. Some months later I was back in my cardiologist office and they were doing another scan of my carotids. I was getting ready to do a stress test when he yanked the curtain open and yelled, "it's gone, it's gone, the plaque in your carotids is gone." He then shouted, 'whatever you are doing KEEP doing it!' I only knew a fraction of what I now know. I can tell you by the standards of this forum my blood work was horrible, yet I found myself staring at a before and after of my carotids and the evidence was undeniable. Was it a fluke? Was it a miracle? Was I a 1 in a million? Perhaps, but I think not. These guys have been doing this for decades with many many success stories. You can either choose to believe it has some merit, or that everyone who's had success with plant-based is lying or wearing a tin foil hat.

    Undoubtedly, so much depends upon genetics on how some people respond to one form of treatment over another. Does plant-based work for everyone? IDK. Maybe not, but ask yourself this, "How many people eating a legitimate plant-based diet have you known that have ever had a heart-attack or stroke?"

    Comment


    • Joe Reilly
      Joe Reilly commented
      Editing a comment
      James, educate me. What is a legitimate plant-based diet? Seriously.

    • sthubbar
      sthubbar commented
      Editing a comment
      Joe, Skittles and Twizzlers are vegan. Some people consider vegan as a subset of vegetarian and vegetarian as a subset of plant-based, so this would mean that Skittle and Twizzlers are part of a plant based diet. I would not consider those as part of a "legitimate" plant-based diet. A legitimate plant-based diet might be one where the food and the plant look similar.

    • Joe Reilly
      Joe Reilly commented
      Editing a comment
      James, were these tests actually done on the doctor’s premises? Or did you go to a lab with a report by another cardiologist being sent to your doc?

  • #9
    Back to the original topic. In this vid, ivor is discussing a case study of CVD stabilization and reversal. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYHqsf9VwBk

    Since Ivor advocates low carb high fat. I will surmise that that is the diet they followed for this reversal. But i will admit it could have been some other diet.

    Comment


    • sthubbar
      sthubbar commented
      Editing a comment
      David, thank you for sharing. You are correct that there is are no details about the diet, so this example tells us nothing. BTW, some observations about Ivor: 1) He is well intentioned, intelligent and doing great work with promoting CAC scans, 2) In this video he stressed blood sugar regulation with which we all agree. Some warnings: 1) He never mentions that high fat, which most people interpret as meat which means saturated fat, prevents or reverses heart disease, yet he calls himself the 'Fat Emperor'. 2) He is getting fat, I estimate his BMI at 25-26, right at the obese mark. I definitely judge doctors by the way they look and any fat doctor, vegan or not, immediately needs to be taken highly skeptically. Look at 2019 video's of Esselstyn, Fuhrman, Gregor, McDougall, and Ornish. They are in their 50s, 60s, 70s and maybe 80s with ideal BMI.
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