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Keto = Gout, High Carb = Obese

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  • Keto = Gout, High Carb = Obese

    I am interested in finding what lifestyle will improve and maintain my health. In 2003, a lecture by Lee Hitchcox convinced me that 80% of our health, under our control, can be controlled by diet. Since then, I tried many things to maintain / lose weight with no success. Things I tried include:

    1) Hire a health coach - no sustainable weight loss
    2) Keto = debilitating gout + idiopathic joint pain leaving me bed ridden for 2 weeks
    3) High Carb = obese

    To be clear, the common failure factor is me and in no way do I take this to mean that any of those methods is unhealthy or ineffective, just that my attempt at them did not work and maybe another attempt would succeed.

    What has worked for me to lose weight is One Meal A Day (OMAD). This is compatible with any diet, whether keto, high carb, or standard American diet. Using OMAD I have lost 50 lbs in 3 months with absolutely no sense of deprivation. On the contrary, it feels like Thanksgiving every day because I can stuff myself until my stomach is aching and I still lose weight.

    Again, I don't take this to suggest that OMAD is a healthy choice, or that it is something that I will sustain for the next 40 years, just that in my particular circumstance, at this point in my life, I have been searching for such a tool for over 15 years and am so happy to have found it.

    Now that I have this one marker, BMI, almost in what I consider the ideal zone, I am searching for the method(s) that will bring my CIMT into the ideal zone. I sure hope it doesn't take me 15 years to find that answer.

  • #2
    The belief that seems to cause the most controversy on this forum is "80% of our health, under our control, can be controlled by diet".

    It is possible that is wrong.

    Statins are definitely not part of diet and on this forum it is probably "80% take statins to reduce CVD risk and the rest are able to control it with only diet". In reality it is probably 98%.

    I am open to joining the 80%.

    Comment


    • rich
      rich commented
      Editing a comment
      I think it comes down to cholesterol and inflammation. If cholesterol is great with diet and inflammation panels all show low levels of inflammation, you probably won't get much, if any, benefit from a statin. I only take 5 mg of Crestor every other day, so I get the anti-inflammatory benefit without the muscle pain.

  • #3
    Originally posted by sthubbar View Post
    I

    Again, I don't take this to suggest that OMAD is a healthy choice, or that it is something that I will sustain for the next 40 years, just that in my particular circumstance, at this point in my life, I have been searching for such a tool for over 15 years and am so happy to have found it.

    Now that I have this one marker, BMI, almost in what I consider the ideal zone, I am searching for the method(s) that will bring my CIMT into the ideal zone. I sure hope it doesn't take me 15 years to find that answer.
    Here's my guess, for what it's worth.

    You've got some SNPs causing problems that you need to identify. Have you done 23andMe or similar genetic test? If you have 23andme data, did you run it through Dr Rhonda Patrick's app?

    I think there may be a problem related to the liver. By eating OMD, the liver has more time to clear everything up, and isn't getting hit every few hours with more fat and glucose.

    I don't know where I got this from, probably a video but I didn't note the name or author
    • LDL-C/HDL-C - predictor of Intima Media Thickness
    • <2 for IMT regression

    Comment


    • sthubbar
      sthubbar commented
      Editing a comment
      rich, thank you for sharing this metric. I'm at 3.3 and this seems like a plausible metric so I'll see how I can work towards it. Plan is to do another round of lab work in the next few weeks.

  • #4
    rich, yes I have done 23andme and run it through Rhonda Patrick's site. I have gotten no benefit from that exercise. Mostly a combination of information overload and indifference in that it's not. like anything from there could be changed, unlike a lab results. Yes, I understand, theoretically, the methods being used can possibly be better tailored with this additional information and that brings us back to the first point of information overload, so for now it gets ignores.

    Comment


    • rich
      rich commented
      Editing a comment
      I found some of the info from the report very actionable, such as items on saturated fat, fat, and vitamin d.

      One area that genetics still has some work to do is when multiple genes affect the same thing, such as heart disease. You might have several genes that indicate likelihood of being heart healthy, but the tests may not properly weight them and can't measure effects of environment.

  • #5
    Have you tried a low carb / high fat, non-ketogenic way of eating? That is what I am doing currently, as ketosis seemed to cause some endocrine disruption, although it was highly efficacious for weight loss and blood glucose control. I am consuming around 100g net carbohydrate per day, divided over 3 meals. It seems to have helped the endocrine issues while keeping hunger mostly in check. Individual results may vary.

    Comment


    • sthubbar
      sthubbar commented
      Editing a comment
      kinpatu, by definition, low carb/high fat is ketogenic. If you are keeping carbs high enough to prevent ketosis then this is no longer low carb. At best it could be described as medium carb, or high carb. I am unaware of anyone promoting the health benefits of a medium or high carb plus high fat diet. Who are you following that is advocating this?

  • #6
    sthubbar

    Most lc/hf diets are not specifically ketogenic, but often have a keto option. Take Atkins for example. While you might go into ketosis during phase 1, you modify the diet by increasing carbs as long as you are still losing weight. There is no effort to generate ketones.

    Keto was originally used to treat epilepsy in children and only recently has become popular as a weight loss tool. I was a member of a popular lc/hf message board for about 15 years, and keto was just 1 of many versions of lc/hf. Give it another 5-10 years and the negatives of a keto diet will start to show up and we will be on to the next perfect diet.

    Comment


    • #7
      I doubt that there were many cultures that didn't eat a lot of carbs if those were available because agriculture made that source of energy plentiful. I don't think that it was about health as much as ease of obtaining enough food. I think that it will be a while before there is enough long-term health data on the keto diets, and so we shall have to wait for proof. I am not a big fan of either strict vegan or strict keto diets, but those seem to work better for many people than the standard American diet. I don't see much benefit to these diet wars. In my view, if it works for you and your health in the long-term then great. I do think that there is enough genetic variation that one diet isn't right for everyone, and finding the diet that you can stick with that does work well for you is what is important.

      There was some mention of Inuit and their diet. I remember seeing some reports on a study about a substantial number of people native to the Artic area not being able to enter significant ketosis because of a mutation in their CTP-1a gene that was driven by a powerful gene sweep (i.e. nature forced it as part of selection pressure). Here is a post I made in Oct 2018 about that gene sweep.

      People aren't all the same, and when we think diets we need to keep that in mind. Some people don't metabolize saturated fat well, and I happen to be one of those (processed my raw 23andme SNP data through Rhonda Patrick's foundmyfitness genetic tool and the Promethease tool). I think that there are a lot of benefits of cycling into and out of ketosis, but I am not so sure about long-term ketosis unless there is some particular health issue (e.g. children with specific seizure disorders for which long-term ketosis can be very helpful). It might well be ok for some people in general and perhaps some elderly people who have glucose metabolism problems in their brains, but there is one thing to keep in mind. There is a gene variant in the artic area (CPT-1a) which prevents a large amount of people from there from producing a lot of ketones and thus being in ketosis. That gene variant became more common because of a selective gene sweep over many generations when those people were eating a lot of saturated fat. They would seem to be the perfect example of a population who should be in almost permanent ketosis, and yet natural selection strongly selected against it.

      http://grantome.com/grant/NIH/R01-HD089951-01
      Last edited by Tom; 08-14-2019, 12:06 PM.

      Comment


      • sthubbar
        sthubbar commented
        Editing a comment
        Tom, thank you for sharing the Discover article. No where in that article did I see anything like 'Normal life expectancy is 70yrs and the average Inuit is 75yrs.' Or any evidence comparing their incidence of CVD. This article simple says that humans are extremely versatile animals and can survive on extreme diets. Every credible study that actually looks at the actual life expectancy and CVD risks says they live shorter and more diseased lives, especially if compared to the 'Blue Zones'.

      • rich
        rich commented
        Editing a comment
        I still say they were not eating a high saturated fat diet. Caribou and moose are not high in saturated fat and seals, whales, fish and seafood aren't.

        For example, 1 lb of moose meat has 3.3 g fat with only 1 g being saturated. Compare that to 1 lb of beef at 33 g fat with 12 g being sat fat.

        I found a comparison of top round beef steak to top round venison steak to make the point. Venison has about half the fat and 3/4 the saturated fat of beef.

        "A 3-ounce serving of grilled top round beef steak contains 138 calories, 25.6 grams of protein and 3.2 grams of fat, including 1.3 grams of saturated fat. Although this isn't a particularly high fat cut of beef, the same amount of broiled top round venison steak provides only 129 calories and 1.6 grams of fat, including only 0.9 grams of saturated fat, while still providing 26.8 grams of protein. Some other cuts of beef are much higher in fat, such as prime rib, which contains 328 calories and 27.5 grams of fat, including 11.4 grams of saturated fat, in each 3-ounce serving."
        https://healthfully.com/326549-nutri...n-vs-beef.html

      • sthubbar
        sthubbar commented
        Editing a comment
        rich, the point is they live shorter less healthy lives than the general populace. Do you have evidence that they live as long as the Blue Zones?

    • #8
      My point is that justifying keto by saying that's how the Intuit ate is not true. While the Intuit ate mostly meat, sea mammals, and fish for a good part of the year, it was not high in saturated fat and was not actually very high in total fat as compared to the typical keto diet. I don't know of any culture that ate a high saturated fat diet.

      Comment


      • #9
        Originally posted by rich View Post
        My point is that justifying keto by saying that's how the Intuit ate is not true.
        Agreed

        Originally posted by rich View Post
        I don't know of any culture that ate a high saturated fat diet.
        Agreed

        So can you provide any culture that lives a long healthy life that does not get the bulk of their calories from starch? I can't.

        Comment


        • Tom
          Tom commented
          Editing a comment
          I sent a private message about fatmax's comment.

        • rich
          rich commented
          Editing a comment
          "Taylor et al then analyzed the metabolism of cholesterol in this population. ''The results indicate that the Masai have a much larger capacity for intestinal cholesterol absorption than whites and a greater ability to suppress endogenous cholesterol synthesis, averaging 50.5%, for compensation of their intestinal absorption of dietary cholesterol. This efficient feedback control is the only homeostatic mechanism that protects the Masai from developing hypercholesteremia.''(1)"

          https://www.reddit.com/r/nutrition/c..._good_example/

        • sthubbar
          sthubbar commented
          Editing a comment
          The Masai lifespan is less than 50 years.

      • #10
        Vegan/vegetarianism is not healthy nutrition. History and science prove it. It is not an opinion. The evidence is overwhelming. It is in fact a meme, a mental disease, just a form of self-mutilation for the individual and a source of enormous profits for the food companies which will promote any lie for money and which the gullible, willfully ignorant populace will embrace and quack doctors endorse.
        Last edited by fatmax; 08-16-2019, 06:46 AM.

        Comment


        • Tom
          Tom commented
          Editing a comment
          Just a reminder that the Forum is a place to exchange views in a respectful manner.

      • #11
        By definition, a ketogenic diet is one that induces the endogenous production of ketones. Most low-carb high-fat (LCHF) diets are not ketogenic. Even the majority of people saying they're doing a ketogenic diet are not in ketosis. I never suggested a medium/high carb + high fat way of eating. That's basically just uncontrolled caloric intake.

        Comment


        • sthubbar
          sthubbar commented
          Editing a comment
          kinpatu, you are right. I did some checking and it seems difficult to get agreement on what 'low' means. Some suggest 20-60 grams of carbs per day. To enter ketosis, the general consensus is that it takes 50 grams per day or less of carbs, so some of the 'low' range could be out of ketosis.

          BTW, for those LCHF fans, please update this page as it is a well referenced hit piece on LCHF with such ridiculous statements as

          'Low-carbohydrate diets are associated with increased mortality'

          'The hypothesis proposed by diet advocates that carbohydrate causes undue fat accumulation via the medium of insulin, and that low-carbohydrate diets have a "metabolic advantage", has been falsified by experiment.'

          Since there is so much reliable evidence contradicting these lies it should be easy to correct this misinformation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-ca...et?wprov=sfla1 </sarcasm off>
          Last edited by sthubbar; 08-18-2019, 07:33 PM.

      • #12
        I believe whether the metabolic effects of LCHF are advantageous is still an open question. I don't have an opinion on the matter. What I can clearly say from personal experience is that an LCHF way of eating is an appetite suppressant. This facilitates easier or effortless caloric restriction and induces weight loss. It doesn't work for everybody, but for some people (myself included) it is highly efficacious. For me, a "normal" carbohydrate intake of 200~300g / day leads to voracious appetite, uncontrollable binge eating, blood glucose fluctuations, and excess energetic periods followed by lethargy. So the health benefits of LCHF may be second order effects. And if you're able to maintain your weight, calorie consumption, and blood glucose on a medium or high carbohydrate diet, good for you.

        Comment


        • sthubbar
          sthubbar commented
          Editing a comment
          kinpatu, this is great. The way I understand this, I 100% agree. In essence, being obese is completely unacceptable to both of us and we may have tried many methods and you have found that LCHF works for you and I have found that OMAD works for me. We can both agree that there are no large populations of long living people that followed either of these diets, so it is unlikely that either of these is the "optimal" diet. They work for us to avoid obesity. As for the voracious appetite, I encountered exactly this problem last night in that I went to a favorite restaurant of mine and instead of having my usual oats, I switched out that dish for mushrooms. I stuffed myself with fruits, salad and vegetable and skipped any starches. This was a huge mistake that I should have already learned. Later that evening, I was voraciously hungry and raided my snacks supply. It is exactly like Dr McDougall says that starches should be the basis of my diet.

        • sthubbar
          sthubbar commented
          Editing a comment
          kinpatu, this is great. The way I understand this, I 100% agree. In essence, being obese is completely unacceptable to both of us and we may have tried many methods and you have found that LCHF works for you and I have found that OMAD works for me. We can both agree that there are no large populations of long living people that followed either of these diets, so it is unlikely that either of these is the "optimal" diet. They work for us to avoid obesity. As for the voracious appetite, I encountered exactly this problem last night in that I went to a favorite restaurant of mine and instead of having my usual oats, I switched out that dish for mushrooms. I stuffed myself with fruits, salad and vegetable and skipped any starches. This was a huge mistake that I should have already learned. Later that evening, I was voraciously hungry and raided my snacks supply. It is exactly like Dr McDougall says that starches should be the basis of my diet.
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