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  • James
    replied
    Originally posted by David View Post
    People like to quote Ornish and say that if you follow his diet you will get his results. Ornish not only instituted low fat diets but he made his patients quit smoking, take up exercise, got counseling and community togetherness support sessions. Due to these multiple interventions, there is no way of knowing whether it was diet or the other measures that made the difference. My own Bale Doneen doctor told me that he got a new patient who WAS ON the Ornish program but was failing. The Ornish diet gave him diabetes and made his CVD much worse. My doc never got a chance to treat the man. He died of a massive heart attack before he was able to see him for the first time.
    David, that is quite interesting. I don't know, but something tells me there is a lot more to this story than what you've been told. Was he under a physician's care? How much did he 'cheat'? Did he just stop eating meat and called it the low-fat 'Ornish' diet? I mean sure, if you're eating nothing but gummy bears, Wonder Bread, white potatoes, and pasta anything is possible. I'd love to hear more about this fascinating, but tragic story.
    Last edited by James; 06-02-2019, 12:07 AM.

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  • Robin
    replied
    Wow! So many conflicting views.

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  • David
    replied
    Originally posted by James View Post
    I think there are two paths in the treatment of CVD: high fat or low fat. We often say follow the science around here and there is often a maniacal obsession with blood tests and the pursuit of the perfect blood numbers. Maybe we should be asking which gets better results? On the high fat side I've only ever heard to two people reversing CVD and that would be Dr. Brewer and John L. and that was only after taking copious meds and a very robust exercise routine. On the low fat side many many many people (including myself) have been able to reverse CVD. The only requirement is to keep LDL <80 and <70 is preferred and not to ingest fats. On a low fat diet your HDL will actually drop, which is absolute heresy to the high fat club, and your TG will probably also rise, again, heresy to the high fat club. But... it works. Ornish famously treated Bill Clinton and others have many patients who have experienced CVD reversal. So it seems we can have an endless pursuit of 'perfect' blood numbers which may or may not stop the progression of CVD or we can go down a path which almost certainly won't result in 'perfect' blood numbers but will stop the progression and very likely lead to CVD reversal. So we can 'follow the science' or 'follow the results.'
    People like to quote Ornish and say that if you follow his diet you will get his results. Ornish not only instituted low fat diets but he made his patients quit smoking, take up exercise, got counseling and community togetherness support sessions. Due to these multiple interventions, there is no way of knowing whether it was diet or the other measures that made the difference. My own Bale Doneen doctor told me that he got a new patient who WAS ON the Ornish program but was failing. The Ornish diet gave him diabetes and made his CVD much worse. My doc never got a chance to treat the man. He died of a massive heart attack before he was able to see him for the first time.

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  • rich
    replied
    Originally posted by James View Post

    Rich, I've never seen nor heard of anyone on a high fat diet reversing CVD except for John L. In one of his videos even Dr. Brewer says John L. is the only patient he's had that has been able to reverse CVD. If you know of any others who've been able to do so please post them! I'm genuinely curious and would love to hear of other success stories.
    I believe a lot of people have been able to lower their coronary calcium score using a high fat diet. Check out some of Ivor Cummins's videos.

    The other thing I was thinking is that seasonal eating quite likely meant eating a low fat diet part of the year and a high fat diet part of the year. Eating just high fat or just low fat may not be optimal for us in the long run.
    Last edited by rich; 05-26-2019, 06:37 PM.

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  • James
    replied
    Tom, here is a link to Esselstyn's website of several success stories. https://www.dresselstyn.com/site/success-stories/ It mentions two guys who were able to regain erectile function. One in his 40's and the other in his 70's if I read that right. If you go to the top of his website under the Articles tab I think there are other CVD reversal images. His book has other success stories with before and after images of CVD reversals taken during angiograms. I will have to dig it up, but my mom saw a cardiologist in Houston who also specializes in CVD reversal. His diet isn't as stringent as Esselstyn and Ornish, and he's also seen many cases of CVD reversal in his patients. I will try to post that info in the next couple of days.

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  • James
    replied
    Originally posted by rich View Post

    James, I have been preaching the same sermon. There is plenty of evidence for both low fat and high fat. What you don't find evidence for is high fat, high carbs, which is what SAD is.
    Rich, I've never seen nor heard of anyone on a high fat diet reversing CVD except for John L. In one of his videos even Dr. Brewer says John L. is the only patient he's had that has been able to reverse CVD. If you know of any others who've been able to do so please post them! I'm genuinely curious and would love to hear of other success stories.

    Leave a comment:


  • rich
    replied
    Originally posted by James View Post
    I think there are two paths in the treatment of CVD: high fat or low fat. We often say follow the science around here and there is often a maniacal obsession with blood tests and the pursuit of the perfect blood numbers. Maybe we should be asking which gets better results? On the high fat side I've only ever heard to two people reversing CVD and that would be Dr. Brewer and John L. and that was only after taking copious meds and a very robust exercise routine. On the low fat side many many many people (including myself) have been able to reverse CVD. The only requirement is to keep LDL <80 and <70 is preferred and not to ingest fats. On a low fat diet your HDL will actually drop, which is absolute heresy to the high fat club, and your TG will probably also rise, again, heresy to the high fat club. But... it works. Ornish famously treated Bill Clinton and others have many patients who have experienced CVD reversal. So it seems we can have an endless pursuit of 'perfect' blood numbers which may or may not stop the progression of CVD or we can go down a path which almost certainly won't result in 'perfect' blood numbers but will stop the progression and very likely lead to CVD reversal. So we can 'follow the science' or 'follow the results.'
    James, I have been preaching the same sermon. There is plenty of evidence for both low fat and high fat. What you don't find evidence for is high fat, high carbs, which is what SAD is.

    The thing that is so frustrating is that probably 99% of cardiologists don't believe what you posted and will insist on high dose statins, stents or bypass surgery, and won't even discuss diet, exercise, and other lifestyle changes until after you have had a cardiac event. I keep asking why is heart rehab available after a cardiac event and not before.

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  • rich
    replied
    Tom, I don't think the improvement in ED is age specific. Dr Esselstyn talks about it in his book, and if I remember right, these were older men. It has to do with rebuilding the endothilial and increasing nitric oxide production.

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  • Tom
    commented on 's reply
    This is for younger guys, right? If a younger guy has a very unhealthy lifestyle including becoming obese, they can suffer from impotence. Changing their diet and general lifestyle could help reverse some of the problems that caused the impotence. It would be interesting to see if that is also true for 65+ year old men. If you know of any breakout by age, please let us know.
    Last edited by Tom; 05-26-2019, 04:18 AM.

  • Tom
    commented on 's reply
    Yep, consuming fruit juice is much more of a problem than fruit, but as we age even eating fruit can be a problem.

  • Tom
    commented on 's reply
    I am not sure that I would say that Dr. Brewer is on a high fat diet, just lower carbs for sure. I guess that many people have different interpretations of what a high fat diet means. Maybe a healthy diet with moderate carbs, moderate protein, and moderate fat would be more appropriate for many people? It just seems like diet discussions are always locked into one extreme or the other (low this and high that). I am always curious about how people reversed heart disease and how that would apply to a wider audience, and so can you speak a little to whatever results that indicated a reversing of heart disease? I am one of many who would normally be better off on a higher carb diet, but eventually I needed to lower my carb intake in order to keep my blood glucose levels lower. I substituted some healthy fats (olive oil) for some carbs (got rid of the unhealthy carbs for the most part). I am for the moderate diet now.
    Last edited by Tom; 05-26-2019, 04:59 AM.

  • VenSub
    replied
    Pasted the link.
    I think I missed the key part, it was mainly comparing consuming fruit vs fruit juice. I saw the bar graph and read a line that blue berries, prunes reduced risk of diabetes by 30 and 20%.

    But there was this line too in the study - "Moreover, greater fruit juice consumption was associated with an increased risk, and substitution of whole fruits for fruit juice was associated with a lower risk, except for strawberries and cantaloupe."


    Results:
    Total whole fruit consumption was weakly associated with a lower risk of type 2 diabetes: the hazard ratio (95% confidence interval) of type 2 diabetes for every three servings/week of whole fruit consumption was 0.98 (0.96 to 0.99) (table 2). In the age adjusted model, each individual fruit consumption was inversely associated with risk of type 2 diabetes in all cohorts (all P<0.001) (see supplementary table 3). Adjustment for personal factors, lifestyle, fruit juice consumption, and the modified alternate health eating index score attenuated these associations. The inverse association for cantaloupe consumption was no longer statistically significant after multivariable adjustments of the aforementioned covariates. Further adjustment for other individual fruit consumption changed the associations to various degrees (table 3). The inverse associations for grapes and blueberries were attenuated, albeit remaining statistically significant. In contrast, associations for strawberries were attenuated toward the null, and cantaloupe consumption was associated with an increased risk of type 2 diabetes after adjustment for other individual fruits. For every three servings/week, the pooled hazard ratios (95% confidence intervals) of risk for type 2 diabetes was 0.74 (0.66 to 0.83) for blueberries, 0.88 (0.83 to 0.93) for grapes and raisins, 0.93 (0.90 to 0.96) for apples and pears, 0.95 (0.91 to 0.98) for bananas, and 0.95 (0.91 to 0.99) for grapefruit. In contrast, the pooled hazard ratio (95% confidence interval) of risk for type 2 diabetes for the same increment in cantaloupe


    https://www.bmj.com/content/347/bmj.f5001


    --
    Googled and found another study:

    The association of fruit intake with T2D was moderate in magnitude but non-significant after adjustment for potential confounders (HR: 0.89; 95% CI: 0.76, 1.04; p for trend =0.30) (Table 4). Similarly, a 100 g/d increment in fruit intake was not associated with diabetes in uncalibrated (Model B HR: 1.00; 95% CI: 0.97, 1.02) or calibrated analyses. Comparing the highest with lowest quartile of fruit intake, the percentage of total variability due to between country heterogeneity was I2=38%, with no country except the UK showing a significant inverse association with diabetes. Citrus- and non-citrus fruits were not associated with diabetes incidence.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3652306/


    Last edited by VenSub; 05-25-2019, 09:43 PM.

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  • James
    replied
    Additionally, for men who have been suffering from impotence due to CVD, it's not uncommon for men to regain the ability to get and maintain an erection after 4-6 months on the Esselystn & Ornish diet(s). Just something to think about if that is an issue you are struggling with.

    Leave a comment:


  • James
    replied
    I think there are two paths in the treatment of CVD: high fat or low fat. We often say follow the science around here and there is often a maniacal obsession with blood tests and the pursuit of the perfect blood numbers. Maybe we should be asking which gets better results? On the high fat side I've only ever heard to two people reversing CVD and that would be Dr. Brewer and John L. and that was only after taking copious meds and a very robust exercise routine. On the low fat side many many many people (including myself) have been able to reverse CVD. The only requirement is to keep LDL <80 and <70 is preferred and not to ingest fats. On a low fat diet your HDL will actually drop, which is absolute heresy to the high fat club, and your TG will probably also rise, again, heresy to the high fat club. But... it works. Ornish famously treated Bill Clinton and others have many patients who have experienced CVD reversal. So it seems we can have an endless pursuit of 'perfect' blood numbers which may or may not stop the progression of CVD or we can go down a path which almost certainly won't result in 'perfect' blood numbers but will stop the progression and very likely lead to CVD reversal. So we can 'follow the science' or 'follow the results.'

    Leave a comment:


  • Robin
    commented on 's reply
    But we never become insulin sensitive again if we are even a tad IR and change our diet drastically to exclude carbs (glucose and fructose).... because yes we can keep the glucose from spiking...but after two years of being OCD about diet and exercise - when eating one slice of thin crust pizza as a test, my BG went to 140 and stayed there for 2 hours. SUCKS! Don't enjoy life nearly as much as I used to with this lifestyle change.
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